Is schooling still about learning, or has it turned into a system for preserving privilege? How did something meant to democratize opportunity evolve into one of the deepest markers of social status? And what happens when efficiency replaces meaning as education’s highest value?

David F. Labaree is Professor Emeritus at the Stanford Graduate School of Education and one of the most influential historians and sociologists of education in the United States. Over his decades of research, he has explored the uneasy relationship between democracy and education, showing how schooling’s promise of equal opportunity coexists with its role in reproducing social inequality. His books, including Someone Has to Fail and How to Succeed in School Without Really Learning, have shaped how scholars and educators think about the tensions between individual ambition, institutional design, and public purpose.

In this episode, David and I explore the paradox at the heart of American education: the very system built to promote mobility also entrenches hierarchy. We discuss how families use education both to get ahead and to stay ahead, how elite institutions become cultural identities, and why meritocracy often masks inherited advantage. David reflects on the deep history behind today’s schooling pressures, tracing how well-intentioned reforms and standardized testing have narrowed learning into measurable efficiency at the cost of curiosity and joy.

Our conversation expands into philosophy, design, and values, asking what it means to build systems that cultivate meaning rather than speed. David shares his thoughts on unintended consequences, the loss of beauty and depth in both education and culture, and the humility required to reform anything as complex as schooling. Together, we reflect on the possibility of an education system that values thinking slowly, acting wisely, and seeing learning as a lifelong craft rather than a competition.